Author Topic: MACI Insurance...  (Read 17151 times)

Fred

  • Slope Soaring is not a crime!
  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4916
  • Gliderist Simplex
    • View Profile
    • http://www.gliderireland.net
MACI Insurance...
« on: July 04, 2008, 10:43:45 AM »
Quick question for the specialists...

I have received my MACI membership card (Thanks Joe !  :D )...
Never read what on the thing, and I don't know why, but in a bored moment, had a look at the back of the card...

The card don't cover you in events ?? Is it right ?

I can't find detailed informations about that...

Does that mean if I break something in Retroplane, in France, I am not covered ??

If someone have a clear answer...  :?:
Education is important, but flying RC planes and gliders is importanter!

Ron

  • Guest
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 08:59:09 AM »
A clear answer?
From insurance?
That would be a first :cry:

My card says, like everyone's, on the front:
"... to fly model aircraft in contests and at approved flying sites".
Now does this mean only at approved flying sites?
Which sites are approved, and by whom?

On the front it also says:
"The above registration number must be displayed on all models for insurance cover to apply".
Does that mean I don't have insurance because none of my models have the number displayed?

On the other side it says:
"Flying at displays is not covered except subject to special MACI regulations".
OK, so I won't do displays.

Confused of Bantry. :?

Alan_Perse

  • ISR Club Member
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 984
    • View Profile
Re: MACI Insurance...
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 12:02:05 PM »
Quote from: "Fred"
Quick question for the specialists...

I have received my MACI membership card (Thanks Joe !  :D )...
Never read what on the thing, and I don't know why, but in a bored moment, had a look at the back of the card...

The card don't cover you in events ?? Is it right ?

I can't find detailed informations about that...

Does that mean if I break something in Retroplane, in France, I am not covered ??

If someone have a clear answer...  :?:


Looking at my card it say that it does not cover you at displays. Since Retroplane is an event and not a public display you should be all right (I assume its not a display Fred). But don't take my word for it, thats just my opinion.
It also says on the card "Coverage in Ireland and Europe"

garrykeogh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 22:12:10 PM »
Hi Guys,
Fred, you might check in here and if you do here is what I have taken from  many insurance discussions.
I have had in-depth conversations with Liam Butler, the MACI treasurer who currently negotiates the insurance and with Liam Broderick who used to.  The mere posession of a MACI card with B certificate status does not extend the group scheme to cover you flying in a public display.  MACI has a special form that is used to extend the group scheme to cover public displays and there is much detail submitted on this form.  A public display implies that there will be a public gallary or gallaries densely populated with spectators... a very dangerous thing to hit!  At a meeting, fly-in or competition event, the spectators are incidentally there as opposed to being the raison d'être.
Basically if you have paid up your MACI subscription to include insurance you have public liability insurance in Ireland, UK and Europe.  It was explained to me like this...

MACI insures the global risk associated with approximately 1000 paid up members.  The risk is based on the majority of these being paid up members of affiliated clubs. To affiliate as a club your field and general safety rules must comply to the guidelines supplied by MACI.  Each individual person flying with insurance must have taken at least an A certificate or must be supervised by a person who has.  As the A test includes questions specifically relating to the MACI code of safe conduct, then the A certified pilot or person supervised by this person will typically conduct themselves in accordance with the code of safe conduct e.t.c.
You can see that there is some attempt made by MACI to keep people within certain limits of behaviour and this is the risk that is covered by the policy.  There are also additional notified risks that are globally covered by the insurance including flying from non-permanent sites (hillsides) and the temporary cover of us when we fly abroad.
There is no question that if you fly at an event that is organised so as to be comply with the guidelines of the local insurance (i.e. with formal organisation, controls, safety plans e.t.c.) and you find yourself liable for thrid party damage or injury then your MACI policy will cover you.  It is used by all sorts of fliers overseas at events and competitions.

Why do I feel I know the answers?

I had a long conversation with Liam Broderick who used to negotiate this policy and was interrested to know if we were covered flying on the slopes of south wales.  I was told YES

I have since spoken about how the cover is "implied" to a visitor or new guy in our club when they are taking instruction from me.  Even though they have never submitted their name to MACI, my cover transfers to them because I have an A & B certificate (have answered the code of safe conduct questions) and they are flying at a site that complies with the MACI guidelines.  In theory the additional risk above that negotiated is negligeable within these constraints... i.e I am not going to stand there doing or saying nothing while a novice standing beside me howls around the heads of bystanders and thrid party property.

A little bit wordy... sorry!  Hope that this gives you some comfort.

Garry

garrykeogh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 22:28:34 PM »
Ron

Two of your questions can be answered quite easily.  

One answer is in my big post above.  There was slope flying before any of our policies were ever negotiated and the underwriter of the MACI policy also underwrites the BMFA.  Slope sites can not be regimented and controlled like a power flying site but the risks as historically demonstrated are included in those insured under the policy.  You are therefore insured flying on a hillside even though it is not "approved" like a club site.

I have checked and the answer to the registration number is... Put it on your plane!  It is a requirement that we carry our reg. number.  You can blame the guy (novice and not a member of any club or MACI) who managed to take off a large powered airplane in the Phoenix park fitted with a co-pilot stabilisation system. He couldn't as a novice over power the gain setting on the co-pilot and watched the plane go out of sight, all the while declining offers of help.  The plane disappeared, he collapsed his tranny aerial and disappeared too.  His plane landed itself successuflly on a taxi way in dublin airport, I was told while Mo Mowlan was approaching the airport during the height of the peace negotiations.  This is also when we lost the EI and were all classified as IRL's

Don't hesitiate to fly at a display if you are competant to do so.  Just fill in the form on the MACI website and send it to Liam Butler

Garry

Ron

  • Guest
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 22:43:34 PM »
Thanks Garry,

That's quite an answer(s). :clap:

Only one question left...
I have no certificates of any sort.
They didn't exist when I last flew, a few years ago now (cough, cough)  :oops: .
Does this mean I'm not covered to fly by myself on a hillside?

garrykeogh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 22:50:01 PM »
Hi Ron,
You going mad looking out at the rain like me!

The certificates are for powered fixed wing and helicopter models with not a single line of the code of safe conduct or flying manoeuvre appropriate for slope flight.  This could not be forced upon slope fliers :wink:

The simple fact of the matter is that anybody who can get more than one flight out of a slope model is by my yardstick far superior in flying skills than a fresh green A certified flying club pilot.  I have been one, am not far removed from one and have been in the company of many :oops:

Garry

Ron

  • Guest
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 08:56:32 AM »
Hi Garry,

Yes it's getting to me :(
Even the dog's getting fed up.
There's been so much rain lately I'm thinking of putting a turbine in the downpipe from the gutter and powering the house from it :twisted:

You're right though.
Anyone who can get two flights out of a model on a slope, and land it in that bit of bog between the gorse and the rocks, should be given a medal not just a certificate :lol:

joe

  • ISR Club Member
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 681
    • View Profile
    • http://www.islandsloperebels.com
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 15:52:42 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to post Garry. You have answered a lot of questions for us all. It was the lack of Certs that was worrying me. Although I do fly power IC and electric at my local club and would be regarded as a fairly competent power pilot I have never gotten it together to take an A cert! I lot of us slopers don't have any Cert!
But we are still covered!

garrykeogh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 00:19:05 AM »
Hi Joe,
I am pretty confident that what I have posted above is absolutely correct and have asked a couple of questions to be totally sure  :?:

In the meantime, here are a couple of by-laws or resolutions passed by MACI in the past that make a specific destinction for slope fliers.  To the best of my knowledge, these are still in force as the most recent resolutions...

Passed on 25/11/95
As from 25/11/95, any person making an application for direct insured affiliation to MACI (i.e. not through an affiliated club) and not in possession of a ‘B’ certificate will not be accepted. Such a person will be advised to join a model Aero club in his/her locality for the express purpose of availing of instruction in the safe operation and flying of model aircraft to ensure such a person acquires the necessary competence. This policy does not affect any member affiliated and insured with MACI in the insured
category prior to November 25, 1995.


Amended 12/03/97
This policy shall not affect gliding flyers and may be waived at the discretion of the Chairman and Treasurer in exceptional circumstances where a prospective member is resident too far from any affiliated club.



Ron,  specifically answering your question about the registration number:

Passed 12/03/97 to take effect on 01/05/97 and amended 30/11/02 No model (other than one built for use exclusively as an indoor flying model) will be covered under the MACI insurance scheme unless and until it has the registration letters and numbers (in a height of at least 15 mm) of its owner permanently affixed to it and either visible outside the model or inside the model in a manner easily visible when the model is simply dismantled (e.g. the wing taken off).

It is the responsibility of the owner to remove the registration number on transfer of ownership of anymodel.
Note: "Permanently affixed" does not include the number on a loose piece of paper or wood inside the model. It should either be painted on the model (outside or inside) in 15 mm minimum height letters, or on a registration plate which should be affixed to the model.


I will update this thread once I get  confirmation from MACI on a couple of questions.

Talk soon

Garry

Happy Days

  • ISR Club Member
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2184
    • View Profile
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 05:28:26 AM »
Woooooooooo,..................Garry, this is some topic!

Thanks for taking your time and ingenuity in clearing up some of these ambigunities regarding questions of liability and insurance cover.

Thank You. :clap:
Try not to run out of airspeed, altitude and ideas....... all at the same time.

Ron

  • Guest
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 15:50:55 PM »
Yes thanks Garry :clap:

That's good news about the registration letters.
I was imagining 3 inch high letters on the wings or something. :oops:
Sounds like we can write inside the radio/battery compartment with a felt-tip pen, or something of the sort.
15mm high is quite small really.

Thanks again. :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

garrykeogh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 17:27:08 PM »
OK Guys... now for the cherry-on-top 8)

This is the absolute situation from the MACI Officer that negotiates our policy for us...

1.  Gliding (slope soaring) from non permanent sites is covered as an item on our group policy th the same levels of public liability cover. See MACI booklet re private sites.

2.  At present the only competency tests we have are for powered flight only, however I hope to set in place similar tests as the BMFA  requirements for Silent Flight so that competency tests are available for all.

3.  MACI members are covered to fly in other European countries, See extract below  from our Policy

Overseas Personal Liability
The Insurer will provide indemnity to the Insured and if the Insured so requests any director partner officer
committee member coach leader or instructor voluntary helper of the Insured or Employee against liability
incurred in a personal capacity while temporarily outside Great Britain Northern Ireland the Channel Islands or
the Isle of Man in connection with the BusinessThe indemnity will not apply
A) to liability arising out of the ownership or occupation of land or buildings
B) where indemnity is provided by any other insurance


For the record...  Our officers in MACI are volunteers who are very approachable individuals.  Anybody who takes this workload on for our common good is typically from that category of person that is happy to answer our questions  8)

All of us as paid up members of MACI are free to show up at the MACI Council meetings as delegates or at the AGM as voting members.  In fact, we can not open our mouths to complain about any aspect of our hobby unless we are prepared to  bring these complaints to our voice... MACI Council.  I will put my colours on the mast and state that I hate beaurocracy just for the sake of it.  The council are thankfully a bunch of guys who are pretty focused on making the hobby work for us, continually trying to make the situation better e.t.c.  They being human can't know exactly whats happening on every hill and every club in every discipline without feedback.  I will stop banging on the drum now, but will remind you all to keep in touch with MACI, we are better off with them than without... hell, some of us could be mildly involved from time to time to help steer things the way we would like :?:

Hope we all feel cozy with this knowledge  :D

Garry

Fred

  • Slope Soaring is not a crime!
  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4916
  • Gliderist Simplex
    • View Profile
    • http://www.gliderireland.net
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2008, 22:30:59 PM »
Hi Garry,

Thanks a million for all these informations !!  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:
Now, we know !  :clap:  :clap:  :D
Education is important, but flying RC planes and gliders is importanter!

Spinifex

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
    • http://www.windandwavemodels.com
MACI Insurance...
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 13:51:55 PM »
It's amazing how incidents can grow hair and cloud the facts over the years

Garrykeogh wrote:

"You can blame the guy (novice and not a member of any club or MACI) who managed to take off a large powered airplane in the Phoenix park fitted with a co-pilot stabilisation system. He couldn't as a novice over power the gain setting on the co-pilot and watched the plane go out of sight, all the while declining offers of help. The plane disappeared, he collapsed his tranny aerial and disappeared too. His plane landed itself successuflly on a taxi way in dublin airport, I was told while Mo Mowlan was approaching the airport during the height of the peace negotiations.:

THE FACTS

1) the flier was not a novice-  he had 17 years flying experience
2) He was or had been a MACI member and had his MACI number on the aircraft.
3) all onboard equipment including servo makes were detailed in the investigation report and he did not have a Co-Pilot - it was not even around in 1996 when this incident happened.

There was a full investigation of the incident  and  concluded that receiver battery depletion was the cause of the fly-away. The model had earlier that day successfully completed an hour of flying time.

The full Incident report is at
http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=3606&lang=ENG&loc=1280


John O'Sullivan
John O\'Sullivan
MACI #26
MAAC #5401